Talk:Ryan Burge (footballer)

Recent issues with article

As the other editor said in their edit summary, Wikipedia doesn't publish private information that hasn't been previously published elsewhere, particularly where articles about living people are concerned.

If you are the subject of the article or connected with him, and you still need help with this matter, please visit the page Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Help, where you can get advice about what to do next. Struway2 (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Please understand that Wikipedia cannot accept information about living people without verification from a previously-published source. If this is important to you, please do as suggested above, and visit the help page, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Help, or see the thread at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Ryan Burge, where I originally asked for advice about this matter. Struway2 (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Doncaster contract offer

Please try to understand that writing for an encyclopedia like Wikipedia is different from writing for fansites or blogs or the player's CV. We're not here to talk a player down or hype him up. We're here to write in a neutral balanced way about the facts of his career, and any opinions included should be justified with reference to reliable published sources from mainstream media. Please see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. If reliable sources talk about him impressing, then it's fine to include their views here, but it's not up to us to make assumptions. Please stick to reliably-sourced facts, and leave the reader to pick up on obvious assumptions for themselves. Thank you for your understanding. Struway2 (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ryan Burge (footballer)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk • contribs • count) 18:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: no dabs found

Linkrot: no dead links found. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   After recovering from numerous injury problems Burge soon became established in the middle of midfield Can you rephrase this - it reads rather clumsily.

   Burge told the press he enjoyed his experience at Japan as the clubs there appreciate inexperienced but technical players, as "they don’t just go for big lumps that head it and kick people". also clumsy as - as

   Otherwise prose passes muster, but there is room for improvement.

   Lead, this doesn't fully summarise the article - the style of play and personal life sections aren't covered. See WP:LEAD

I have tried to resolve these issues.--EchetusXe 20:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   There is a citation needed tag outstanding from July

   Otherwise sources check out.

Information was added by Burge himself, but I removed it as it was merely trivia anyway.--EchetusXe 20:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   As broad as is possible for a player with only 23 appearances to date.

2. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

3. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

4. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   no images used

5. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   On hold for seven days. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

   OK, this is good to go. Passing as GA. Congratulations!

Hello again! Not quite as detailed as Stanley Matthews, but I attempted to resolve the issues you found.--EchetusXe 20:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Video source

Wikipedia takes pride in being the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but editors have to play by the rules. The information we include has to be verifiable with reference to reliable published sources. No source that I can find credits Mr Burge with an assist on Mr Maclean's opening goal in that match. The Oxford United match report doesn't. Nor does the Burton Albion match report. The BBC text commentary doesn't. The Oxford Mail match report doesn't. The Football League and OUFC player stats give Burge one assist, i.e. the one against Crewe. With respect, a seven-second clip from Mr Burge's highlights promo that seems to show the ball being blocked by either an attacker or a defender or both, then rebounding to the goalscorer, without an independent audio commentary, in fact without any audio commentary, can't possibly be considered enough to award the assist to Mr Burge when no other source does. Struway2 (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Fans award

If the "award" concerned really was a player of the year award voted for by "the fans", it would have been reported as such, would certainly be notable and would belong in the article. As it is, it's a three-way tie on one fans website counting up the number of times each player was voted man of the match on that site over the season and calling that their player of the season. Which quite understandably hasn't been reported elsewhere because it isn't notable or interesting outside that site, and doesn't belong in a serious article about a football player. It really isn't worth edit-warring about. Struway2 (talk) 22:50, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Picture

Would someone with the editing privileges be able to add a picture of Mr Burge if I provide a source from him (all copyrights, licenses etc are of no problem) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gold2040 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Ryanburge.co.uk official website

I am Ryan Burge and I would like my page deleted off Wikipedia please. I am not willing to argue about the issue its more of a polite request at the moment. My reasons for this are

I feel the people editing my page seem very biased and the article comes across quite negative in many ways

If companies are doing due diligence on me the first article that comes up when you type my name into a search engine is wiki so it is very misleading if people read some of the things on here.

Also Wiki is not based on factual information you only re write in the article what has been said in the media which I find strange as that is like saying it is factual and we all know the media is far from it.

This is evident as some of my clubs listed like Hyde and machida Zelvia I have never played for, I wouldn't even know how to get to the hyde fc ground as ive never been there!

If people want to know about me they can visit my own website Ryanburge.co.uk not Wikipedia.

Also my website team have tried to work with Wikipedia by re writing the page to coincide with the website but as you can see all the work they have done has been undone and a childish comment left as you will see saying "are you for real"

Therefore I no longer have an interest in resolving the page and would like it taken down asap — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.239.189 (talk) 14:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If you let us know here the exact changes that would like to be made, they will be reviewed. Editing when you have a conflict of interest and then complaining when your edits are reverted isn't helpful. You clearly meet our notability criteria so the article is unlikely to be deleted but we are more than happy to work with you to make sure it's accurate. Thank you.--ukexpat (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok thank you. I will try this as you seem reasonable, I can assure you I do not wish to be involved in an edit war. However the person who undone all the work my website did on the article did not give a valid reason which I felt was unfair.

To be honest I would like the whole article changed to coincide with my website. Everything on my website page is factual and up to date & it summarises my career very well. I feel this article has got way out of hand and things that have been added to it are irrelevant and I think the article has just become the subject of point scoring (people editing it to get their own number of edits up to boost their own account without actually having any interest in the article)

Some examples...

I am 183cm tall which is 6ft but this article has me down as 5 10

I was not under contract at machida Zelvia, worcester city, Barnet or Hyde I would like to make that very clear, this article makes out I have had loads of clubs but this is not true at all.

Also I was at west Brom when I was an under 10, I have never been there since. As soon as I left school I was with Birmingham City so that should be my "youth career" club.

The Glenn Hoddle academy should be on my club history as it was a registered club, hence the reason it appeared on the football manager game.

I went to Japan on a 3 month holiday visa, I had found a club to sign for however because my 3 months was coming to an end I returned home to sort a proper visa, but during that time found an opportunity with the Glenn Hoddle academy that I wished to take up instead. There was no "issue" with my visa has someone has written in this article and it makes me look like I'd been kicked out of the country.

Another example, "He missed a team meal" I never missed any meal I was told not to bother coming as I had not signed my new contract that was offered and the manger threw his toys out the pram over it" but that statement makes it look like its a fact. Also saying I claimed I made my own way to the game implies that I am lying which is also biased.

Also I never refused to apologise for the incident, I was never asked to because there was nothing to apologise for. The manager tried to fine me 2 weeks wages and when I returned from my suspension tried to sack me. Luckily I had kept a log of all the calls and texts I had made and a football league panel decided the club was wrong to suspend me and they couldn't sack me as I had followed correct procedure and hadn't done anything wrong. However as my position had been made untenable I felt it was right that I left the club. All this was because I hadn't signed a new contract that the chairman paul Wildes had offered me and the manger was worried about the things I would say when I left the club because of how I was treated by him so like I've said he's tried to cover his tracks.

Also there has been a note left some time ago to add a picture to the article but nothing has been done. I have one which I am allowed to use, so if the article does stay here if someone could please contact me I will send one across.

This is a lot of information but the bio on my homepage www.ryanburge.co.uk is the best source to use, it would be best all round if we just used that text & those facts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.96.141 (talk) 19:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• Most sources say 5"10, though some are saying 6 foot. Bear in mind we are debating over two inches here.
• The infobox is not just for clubs players are contracted to. Though admittedly the academy's arrangements (Worcester, Jerez, Hyde) make for unusual and potentially confusing viewing. However any club doing their "due diligence" would actually read the article and see the player was not flitting from club to club. As the opening lead says "He joined the Glenn Hoddle Academy in Spain in summer 2009. From there he was sent out to Worcester City, Jerez Industrial, Doncaster Rovers, and Oxford United to gain first team experience. In June 2011 he signed with Port Vale via Hyde (partners of the Hoddle Academy)."
• Possibly remove West Brom from youth career infobox if it was for that young an age.
• "Visa issue", I don't think that is a negative phrase but I have reworded it for you.
• Again I have reworded the apology thing, but the club put their case across quite strongly there. A "claim" is not assumed to be false. There were two sides to that story and I think the article shows that.
• You can upload a photo here.

I think you are letting your imagination run amock here. The article is quite positive if anything, "pulled the strings to help Vale control the second half", "a string of impressive performances", the whole style of play section. Worcester City, Jerez Industrial, Doncaster Rovers, Oxford United, Hyde... ok these were practically loans, I will see what others say is the best way of representing this in the infobox. Other than that you are arguing about semantics and a couple of inches of height, nothing to warrant cutting large swaths of the article out in favour of what happens to be written on ryanburge.co.uk You can't just rewrite history to put yourself in the best possible light, besides which there is barely anything negative in there.--EchetusXe 00:18, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for that we are getting somewhere, however it's definitley not my imagination, it's there in black and white for everyone to see. If Wikipedias page is going to be the first thing that comes up about me as it is with the majority of people then it needs to be accurate, whether we are debating 2 inches or a millimetre its irrevelevant it should be accurate or not on the site at all. One site says that I weigh 65 kg, which I would never be unless I had one of my legs chopped off, but it doesn't mean it should be taken as gospel and be on this site. i have looked at other people wikis, players that I've played with and its really just a summary of their career, but my page seems like it's turning into a newspaper article with the length of it and I feel people only really need to read the important bits.

Also it's missing important bits

My website is not rewriting history it's just summarising my career to date with facts, nothing in their is not true and I just feel the article is too big with information that really isn't important. I'm not trying to big anyone up for example I don't mention on my website about "pulling strings" like in this article or scoring 60 goals as a kid as I don't feel it's really relevant.

But like I've said ive never had a contract at Hyde or machida Zelvia, so those clubs should not be mentioned on my page despite false media reports, you can contact the clubs if you wish but I can assure you it's the truth. One of the first things reporters say to me when interviewed is "you've had a lot of clubs for a young man" and I say that's rubbish where did you see that and it's always them looking at my wiki page. it then becomes a vicious circle and more and more articles with false information appear due to what's on my wiki.

Like I said I don't want to be involved in an edit war, but as you can appreciate if I see something that is not true I would like it corrected and I'm not willing to leave it. I agree the whole article is not negative and a lot is positive but I am also aware that different people have been editing the article and some of them only write something negative.

Hopefully we can resolve all this or I would really just like the article deleted and myself erased from Wikipedia

Thank you for the link for the picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.96.141 (talk) 12:21, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd guess Mr Burge (or whoever used to edit the article on his behalf) won't think much of my opinion, because we've had many a revert war on the subject of reliable sources, original research and neutral point of view: see the various threads above, and the article history. The most recent one being my failed attempt to suggest that half a line in a diary piece in the local paper of a club he was about to join wasn't a reliable source for inserting at the top of the lead section the claim that "In his teenage years he was rated as one of the hottest prospects in the country", when there were no contemporary, or for that matter any other, sources to be found elsewhere to support such a claim. Apart from that, it's a long time since I touched the page, and I don't intend starting again. But I'm glad he's talking to us now.

As to height: people grow. Sources rarely update their height information, so if Mr Burge's height was first recorded before he stopped growing, it's not unlikely that an out-of-date figure is still widely published. The obvious example is Jordon Mutch, who was 15 when first registered with a Premier League club, and was then 5ft 9/1.75 or thereabouts: so that's the height that remains on his Premier League profile, despite his having been 6ft or more for years.

As to the infobox: standard football-article procedure is to include all clubs played for and/or contracted to, where verifiable from reliable sources.

Barnet: Mr Burge made his Football League debut for Barnet. That single appearance is confirmed by the Barnet FC website cited in the article and by other standard sources, so that game belongs in the infobox, whatever his contractual relationship with the club may have been.

Machida Zelvia: Evidence for Mr Burge appearing for this club seemed to stem from the Gloucester-based press, which for a time followed his career quite closely and published content that I never managed to find elsewhere. I'm guessing "I had been in Japan for three months and played for Oita Trinita before I came back to England to sort my visa with the intention of a career over there" was probably a mis-quote, as well. If there's no independent verification of his playing for any Japanese clubs, as opposed to training with them or whatever, it should be removed from the infobox.

Hoddle Academy: I don't know whether this counts as a club or not, but other players with WP articles don't include it. If it went in, we could only include stats for games in a recognised league: did it run teams that played in a league?

Worcester City: Mr Burge played once for Worcester City's first team in a league match, so that match also belongs in the infobox.

Hyde: According to the FA's published lists of contracts entered into and exited from, page 5 of this PDF lists him under the heading "List of Players under Written Contract Registered" as joining Hyde FC on 1 July 2011. This PDF lists him on page 16 under the heading "List of Players under Written Contract Whose Registrations have been Cancelled by Mutual Consent", as leaving Hyde FC on 1 August 2011, and on page 2, under the heading "List of Players under Written Contract Registered" as joining Port Vale FC four days later on 5 August. No idea why it might have been done that way, but the FA clearly think he was contracted to them, albeit not during a playing season. Whether a club there was no intention of his ever playing for belongs in there, I don't know.

Thing is, Ryan, if you want to leave stuff out of your career history on your website, that's between you and any potential employer, and nothing to do with us. But this article isn't your online CV, it's an encyclopedia article. We have a duty to living subjects to write about them conservatively, but we also have a duty to our readers to write about them accurately. We shouldn't hype them up or do them down, but we can't reasonably be expected to leave out neutral factual stuff just because... You did make your Football League debut for Barnet. I don't know why you'd want to airbrush that out, it doesn't seem anything to be ashamed of. And, with respect, I find it hard to believe that any club seriously doing due diligence would just count the clubs in the infobox of a Wikipedia page. As EchetusXe says above, the words right next to it make the real situation clear. good luck, Struway2 (talk) 13:46, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I will look at this later properly, however the main thing that should clear the Hyde bit up is that their are clearly articles of me holding a vale shirt at the ground on the 29th June, the date I signed for vale, so that's pretty obvious I couldn't be a Hyde player in August. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.96.141 (talk) 15:06, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I have put an amendment to the infobox.--EchetusXe 17:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)